I came across an interesting situation last week, so to protect the innocent names are going to be left out. I joined a 25-man Vault as I was still in need of off some Deadly leggings in the off chance that they drop. I learned that the raid leader had the intent to master loot any gear that drops to anyone he wanted to, regardless of who actually won the roll. The person in question even went so far as to leave the guild to prevent negative publicity for the guild.
And I made my feelings known on Vent which prompted an interesting discussion. And people were more than willing to share their viewpoints of the situation. I stated that given our current recruiting situation causing bad blood among the general population wasn’t exactly in our best interest, not to mention treating other people like that is wrong anyways.
The counter-point was that with all the shenanigans this person has pulled, the next day recruiting from the Guild recruitment channel or even Trade chat, no one remembers anything he does. And that given the sheer number of guilds on Illidan with guild turnover among most guilds at what seems to be an all-time high, bad publicity may be the best publicity when it comes time to do Uldar. And of course “Vault is srs bzness” was tossed in at least once.
One person made themselves feel better about the whole Vault situation by stating there had to be a clause stated in raid ahead of time that said “If you suck, you don’t get loot” as a justification.
Obvious points made by me and a few others included things like:
- Just because we made up a majority of the raid, are we really in a position to distribute loot based off performance?
- Not all players are created equal, and just because they appeared to suck on our meters doesn’t mean they weren’t trying their best.
Some other interesting scenarios were laid out as well in later conversation. For example, 2 Rogues are in 25-man Vault. One Rogue, about to break 2200 with their Arena teams, pulled great DPS while the second Rogue barely breaking 1300 ratings did very mediocre-borderline-terrible DPS. Two Rogue gloves drop. PvE and PvP. The PvP Rogue who did great DPS won the roll for Valorous while the other Rogue won the roll for the Deadly gloves. Despite all manner of convincing from the Rogue with good DPS and high Arena ratings, the Rogue who won the PvP gloves doesn’t want to trade.
One person in this conversation stated they would just loot the Deadly gloves to the PvP Rogue and give Valorous to the second one regardless. Would you switch the gloves or distribute them properly?
Here is another situation brought up, and as far-fetched as it may be, it makes you think. Pretend you are going to be getting a near world first Kil’jaeden kill back when it was new content. For whatever reason you have a PuG Hunter who ended up dying 6% into the fight or so. Lo and behold, Thori’dal drops and you are forced to roll against the dead Hunter and he wins the roll. The Master Looter whispers you and says “Do you just want me to give you the bow?” What do you respond with?
Sure it’s far-fetched, but perhaps that scenario would be your breaking point.
One person shared a great story, which unfortunately is true. This person convinced their mother to play World of Warcraft. She ended up playing a Death Knight instead of another class and leveled it to 80. They were happy their mom was playing and enjoying her time in the game. She got into her first 25-man Vault, showed up and did her best to DPS as far as her understandings of DK mechanics would let her.
Valorous DK gloves drop and she won the roll. However the raid leader decided she sucked and gave the gloves to someone else. She was devastated. She didn’t grasp why she didn’t get the gloves although she won the roll for them. Could you be the person who ninja’d from some one’s mother? A mom who is trying to embrace online games and see what her children love about them so much?
There are situations where I think it is so astronomical that anyone would become a ninja-looter. For example, you’re running 25-man PuG Naxxramas and as your just about to finish Kel’thuzad on your Ret Pally/Hunter/DK/Warrior/etc you get a call from Bill Gates offering you $1 million for your account if you have a Betrayer of Humanity by tonight. And of course, as you check the body, there it is. Who wouldn’t take the Betrayer of Humanity for a million dollars? I am sure you could make it up to anyone you ninja’d from with 10 grand or so.
Sure, a lot of these are hypothetical scenarios. And most people rather treat the people on the other side of the characters as the people they are. Some have fewer moral restrictions when dealing with people they don’t know. So you have to wonder, how extreme would the situation be until you voluntarily took an item from someone else even though they won it? How much time has to be invested in an online world before something has real-world value and it actually makes you a thief?
Thoughts, opinions, breaking-point scenarios. Post ‘em!
EDIT: I forgot to share this story.
When I was playing my Warrior, my guild decided to raise my reputation with the Thorium Brotherhood for crafting items. I dropped Mining and picked up Leatherworking. Our guild’s first 2 Ragnaros kills yielded two Eyes of Sulfuras. And much to my dismay, the first one went to oe of our Paladins, Bubblez. Now Bubblez is an awesome guy (he commented on the blog recently) but I won’t lie that part of me was quite upset that we were giving our first Hand of Ragnaros to a Paladin before Retribution even had hints of being viable.
The time came where we were ready to craft the first Sulfuron Hammer. And yours truly had to make it for Bubblez. I remember crafting it, and having it sitting in my bag, right next to my own Eye of Sulfuras. And despite the promptings of a lot of people, I couldn’t being myself to right-click the Eye to create my own Hand of Rag and rob someone else, especially a guildie, of their Hand of Ragnaros.
I personally think you should decide what system you are doing before hand and let everybody know then stick to it. Consistency is the key. If someone isn’t performing well, then too bad. You let that person come in the raid. How else are they suppose to learn. Let chance decide. Or get yourself a decent system of earning the chance to get gear. Just let it be known before hand, this under the table stuff breaks guilds apart.
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You know, about the only time I would reach my breaking point would be if there was a copious amount of real world money involved. Granted we’re talking something in the $500,000,000+ range here, I figure if I’m being hypothetical then let’s aim high. That seems crazy but I have a point to make at the end…
Otherwise I could never bring myself to do it. I’ve master looted the blue proto-drake to somebody else who won the roll. I just gave death’s bite to possibly the most annoying and outright fucking stupid player I’ve ever met because she won the roll over a fury warrior who I’ve known for 8 years and needed the upgrade more (she was rocking a wraith spear already as a retribution paladin). To me, there’s no excuse for ninja-looting because integrity is more valuable than anything in this game.
I feel that a sense of self dignity and integrity comes with maturity in this game. People that try and justify it by any stretch are pathetic. All the money in the world isn’t worth your honor. It may sound a little nuts, but I believe that once you set your principles down then it takes a big man (or woman) to stand by them and in the end karma will repay you for it.
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Well in all honesty in your example of the bow dropping and the leader whispering me if i wanted it i would most likely say yes (providing the person wasnt a good friend), It is a terrible thing to say really but would we all not look down on the person who we dont like/know and futher ourselves rather than see them get better gear? In an ideal world we would all play by the rules and like the same to be done for us. As I would be really anoyed as it would happen to me but if i really thought about it I would do the same in return. But this is only my opinion towards people i dont know / like, as to me if it was a close friend then that is when honour and dignity come into play
Rules are made to be broken. The only difference is that because you dealing with people you don’t know, you wouldn’t bother to make it up to anyone with 10 grand.
I’m very much in favor of giving loot to people who both need it and deserve it. I see gear as a means of investment. BIgger upgrades means bigger returns. I would gladly pass gear to ungeared players with horrible dps as long as they have the capacity to improve. Leveling to 80 without an acceptable knowledge of your class mechanics doesn’t count. Dying on a boss 6% into the fight certainly doesn’t count.
I still remember my first VoA25. The raid was mostly guildies with some pugs. The t7.5 hunter leggings dropped, and the pug hunter in t7 leggings outrolled me in Leggings of Pursuit and another pug hunter in leveling blues. Did he have a right to roll on it? Sure. Would I have rolled if I had t7 and saw others contributed in their capacity? No.
Let’s not pretend that the Vault of Archavon is any kind of test of skill. It is basically just like playing a slot machine. The whole point of it, in my mind, is to allow people in terrible gear a very small chance at some good gear. If you only want people who are going to do a lot of DPS, don’t take people with bad gear, or tell people ahead of time that they aren’t going to be allowed to roll unless they do more than X dps. 1300DPS may not be good, but it is better than 0, so people shouldn’t act like the terrible DPSer brought nothing to the table.
@Argon I completely agree. So what if they only showed up with a warm body? If their performance was that much of a concern, why bring them in the first place?
I know it was already said, but the distribution method needs to be set before hand. Once you are letting people roll on an item, there are no other factors. If there were other factors, they should have taken effect before the roll.
Would it be less devastating to be told you can’t roll because you suck than to be allowed to roll and then told you can’t take your winnings because you suck? I don’t know. But at least if you knew that was going to be an issue you could drop from the raid before hand.
I ran a pug H-VH yesterday. At the end of it, my dps accounted for over 50%. I didn’t care per se, but I posted the numbers, at which point I learned that one of the other dps was a 12 year old disabled kid. Did I feel like a loser for posting the numbers? Yes. 400 dps is damn good for a 12 yr old disabled kid imo. It’s just too easy to forget that anyone (even your own mom) might be the one behind the toon.
“The stronger the lock the more honorable the person” I can’t remember where I read / heard that but I have always believed in it, if your welling to steal from a stranger your welling to steal from a friend.
To use the excuse that the DPS sucked, maybe you should inspect / armory them, we (our guild) always does that before a pug is started. If you are running the raid and the DPS is doing the job but it’s still to low, you put together a bad raid.
To me it’s just a form of robing, sure they didn’t break into your home and take something, but they took something that would make your life (real or on-line) better.
Drotara I can only hope you didn’t participate in this raid, and I would hope the entire guild knows what this one person was welling to do, because they will do it again.
-Fosters
@ Fosters took the words right out of my mouth.
@Dro if only a warm body showed up raid leader did poor job of leadership.
If you compromise who your are then who are you really?
The only thing I have in my life is my decisions and choices. If I compromise my morals didn’t I just become what I hate.
The irony of your post today is last week someone ninja’d an OS 25 man run. My guild spent our time on Maly 25 (dead). So Monday (non raid day) before reset I figure wtf I answer /2 for dps. No drakes so easy kill the raid leader gives loot and last 2 pieces went like this. The DK,druid, ?? gloves to a palidan. At which point you can imagine the chat in raid. Then he states goodbye thanks for coming Raid chat hey the Hunter, Shaman, Warrior gloves are on boss and your RL/ML. He stops hearth asks for rolls which he rolls first with a 1 then after shaman rolled 98 he tqakes them and leaves raid and logs.
Now you might say thats not how I am talking about distributing loot. A thief is a thief no matter how you justify it in your mind.
The part that blew me away the most!!! next day in chat I see /2 raid lfg dps for blah. I talk in chat about how what he did and the replies scared me that so many where justifying it.
When you look at your Thori’dal for how ever long you have it that memory will be there, that is Karma at work and not the kind I want.
There’s an old saying from days when Dungeons and Dragons ruled the tabletop RP arena:
“The dice never lie.”
If you care that damn much about max DPS output on a “raid” boss like 25-man Vault, then make sure that you only invite/bring over-geared people who won’t even need the gear and are just doing the instance for something to tide them over till 3.1 goes live. If you are willing to fill the remaining X number of slots with PUGs, then you accept what you get and hand whatever loot drops according to the dice rolls. Just my $0.02 here.
Oh, and personally, as much as I coveted Thori’dal when the content was new, I would tell the Lootmaster, thru clenched teeth to hand the bow to the toon who won the roll.
“The dice never lie.” Words to live by…. especially when your dice seem to always roll low on items you really, really, really want. :P
Ohhh way to hard… my eyes are bleeding, my ears are bleeding.. I am shaking at the thought of such decisions.
However, as much as it would suck… I would be turning them over to the /roll winner.
If the decision was /rolling at the beginning of the raid, then I would stick by it.
I seem to recall once our masterlooted gifted something to me by mistake… the poor pugger thought we had it in for them… “I” felt guilty for receiving goods I didn’t want (and from memory couldn’t use)
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The way I feel, the day WoW loot becomes more important than my own code of ethics and integrity is the day I need to quite playing. I believe you treat people the same in the game as you do in real life.
This is oddly a concern for me recently. My guild has been looking to get into doing 25mans, we can normally field 15 – 20 guild/friends of guild. So we end up pugging 5. Now some of the members, mostly older ones, are pushing to have some sort of list or ni-karma system.
The problem that has been stated with this is, it’s not hard to find a pug. and quite often, even if their dps is mediocre, you need them more than they need you. And to bring them in at the bottom of the list, with a chance at loot that only normal members pass on just seems like a gigantic cockblock. Most importantly too you need to keep a good reputation as a guild.
I do remember good and bad people I’ve grouped with, there’s many a guild I don’t want anything to do with now. I’ve been on Cenarius just about since release, and while I’m not always thrilled to be in some groups. I keep in mind that in some cases people are working their asses off… but they just aren’t the same player that I am or my guildies are.
Not to say that all players are working like crazy, I’ve been in groups with autoattacking shaman etc… but I try to keep in mind that there is a person on the other side.
hm…
common sense would be great. i just had a talk bout that yesterday as we finished naxx with some randoms, the other hunter pulled out 1600dps with sv, that being said he still got 2 items cuz its a better upgrade for him and it surely made him happy.
in a raid where u ve a raid plus x random people in it…..u see..u might not be able to do the raid without em, regardless the performance they did, they still did help in downing the boss so why dont they deserve the right to roll on items ?
if u do the roll system its just natural that people can roll if they need it.
on a sidenote i sometimes get the impression that people roll on everything not knowing which is good for them and what not.
in your example with the rogues..why not just simply talk to each other in the first place “yo let me get the pvp, u get the pve hands”, a lot of problems could be solved if people would just talk beforehand with each other imo.
regards
a hunter with betrayal of …. waiting for bill gates call :))
hmm in the case of the rogues, what would have been wrong with a simple /roll?
I for one do not see the point in punishing players who don’t play as well, how else are they going to improve their gear if they don’t get to upgrade? keep the crap people crap? common sense please people.
In the case cos the hunter and the bow, the higher roll (i.e the dead hunter) should get it. Just because he died early on doesn’t mean he sucks, it could have been a simple mistake. If you don’t want to lose to pug people don’t pug.
Never EVER ninja from someones mum. end of. She WILL hunt you down. Again if her DPS was down, wouldn’t she benefit from the gloves? I thought getting loot was about improving your own stats and therefore performance.
WTF has happened to this game?
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Ohhh, you hit me with the bit about Thori’dal. My answer, though, would be “Yes, of course I want it, but they won, so they get it.” Just because they maybe got unlucky and died that one time that it dropped, doesn’t say anything about their previous performance, or dedication to the guild, or many of the other things that may dictate their right to have it or not. I’ve lost my fair share of rolls, as have many other people, but really, if you’re going to give out loot the way you want to, regardless of rolls… why even have anyone roll at all? All it does is disappoint people, because they think they won something, and then you say “well, no, sorry.”
Also, I would have to speak out were I in the raid with the guy who passed over the mom for someone else, just because “she sucked”. Well, maybe better gear would help her do better the next time. If you’re rolling, the person who wins the roll gets the loot, unless they decide to pass to someone else. But it should be up to them, because at that point, it’s essentially theirs to give away or keep as they choose.
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I am a firm believer in treat others as you want to be treated. And I throw my hat in with the low dps has as much right to loot as high dps – in the end both pushed about the same number of buttons. What gets ethically tough for me is this: the people I run with are middle aged nice people who have some clue about stuff but not a lot. Stuff will drop that someone wants but has no clue that it isn’t really for them. Moroes pocket watch for a rogue for example. In my noobish guild anyone who wants rolls and best roll wins. Every once-in-a-while, explaining why it isn’t good for them works and is appropriate, but sometimes I have to gulp as I watch loot go to the “wrong” person.
Perfect example of why I barely PUG anything!!!!! But really loot should be laid out before the raid gets going.
Looting is the bane of all raids or instos, be it a PUG or Guild run.
My belief? If it’s a PUG then it’s open roll. Yes, I might lose my Gun or Bow to some Mage that’s planning on D/Eing it for mats, but that’s the deal with pugs. Need vs. Greed should be the rule, but not everyone lives up to it.
Now Guild runs… These are different. One should think of improving the guild as a whole. If there are 2 members of the same class and some phat lootz drop, well then it’s time to really evaluate who would benefit more. (of course this is if all things are equal). Sometimes, a well skilled player can sux on DPS just because they haven’t had the opportunity to get the gear.
I agree with setting the rules before you even begin a run and making sure it’s clear to everyone what those rules are. Being part of a new guild and as one of it’s leaders there’s a lot to learn in a very short time span when it comes to this.
When the guild was first created (this expansion) it was a small band of people and a great deal of pugs, myself included. Everyone had an equal shot at loot but need before greed.
Once we were able to field the numbers to fill out most of a 25 man raid with a few pugs, usually those interested in joining the guild, did the issue of “I’m more deserving of this loot since I’m a guildee and I worked hard to get here.”
Now before it was a complete roll system, master loot to avoid most potential conflicts. Currently we have a boss modifier system for naxx 25 loot. If you’re on time for the raid it’s a +2 to your modifier. You are there for a boss kill +2 guildee, +1 non-guildee. If you won something it cleared your modifier. Modifiers determine who wins the loot, similar to a dkp system although it is wiped after every naxx run, with a small rollover of your modifier divided by ten rounded down for decimals. This ensured that guildees had a higher priority on specific loot that they wanted while still giving the pugs a decently fair shot at loot.
World of warcraft is a game.
And I’d also like too put in, that if some person gets loot over you, that is one less person you have too contend with next time.
We currently have some issues going on regarding ninja looting between the top guild on the server and us, the 4th guild on the server. A couple of alts from the top guild on our server organised a pug 25 man naxx and quite a few of our guys joined in on either alts or mains that couldn’t make our scheduled raid. Loot rules were clearly defined at the start of the raid. Top roll on main spec wins offspec second.
Grobbulus comes up and the mace drops as well as some other items. People roll……mace gets given to the person with the third highest roll???? An alt from the top guild. One of our guys got the top roll. Time for another item……..one of our guys gets top roll……item gets given to the second roll………goes to an alt of the top guild………third peice rolls and one of the pugs gets the top roll…….item goes to the lowest roll…….one of the alts from the top guild.
As you can imagine everyone (except the guys that got the loot) was not happy. Then just to top it off, all the guys from the top guild DC…..and then log onto their mains.
Sometimes even setting up loot guidelines doesn’t help. Ethics are a hard thing to find these days it seems.
In my opinion you’re treading thin ice by presenting such a broad array of situations.
In regard to the VoA scenario, we’re talking about Illidan, from a social perspective its a sesspool of people with shitty attitudes, no ethics and a we’re greater than you outlook.
Encore has shitlisted upward of 4 or 5 existing guilds for this very reason. We dont stay in a pug that any one of their members are in or allow them in any of our pugs for numerous reasons.
Treating others with the “Golden Rule” is how we choose to operate, much like Blood Legion and Angry we very much care about how our title is viewed and taking things from people that don’t happen to be in a major guild or top a meter is just not how things _SHOULD_ work. But the server we play on not only looks the other way but glamourizes it or takes the “lol its just Vault” perspective and there is a reason why those players will never be in a successful guild and experience the camaradarie that lies within.
With regard to your Thori’dal post, if we were in that situation where we had to pug a hunter to complete the encounter lets say your guild couldnt field a SWP raid that week and I hit you up and asked you to come. You bet your bottom dollar you would be well informed before stepping into our instance ID that your chances of getting the orange bow were _nil_. If we set the expectation in advance then it is up to you accept the terms and enjoy the kill or not.
My outlook as a GM/RL is to put the ball in the court of the pubby, let him know what our expectations are and what his loot limitations are and simply let him decide. If he agrees we always uphold our end of the bargain.
Drot, I’d like to know who this person was so that I dont group with him and he never has a chance at getting through our application process. We have a list for these people =).
I know of several guilds that used to use DKP, EP/GP, or other point based loot systems that are now doing a simple /roll for each piece. The only rule that we have is that if you’ve gotten an upgrade, you let the rest of your class (or the rest of dps/tank/heals) roll first for the night.
I’ve been in situations where there were pug members of a raid that would want to roll on gear that might drop, and only once have i ever seen it said that we weren’t going to let them roll on loot. (King’s defender for a warrior tank that had been to every Kara run for his team every week for 3 or 4 months without fail, respeccing from fury to prot and back every time, despite not needing anything else from kara for most of that time.)
The key is making sure everyone, especially pugs, knows the loot rules. Honor, karma, the golden rule… whatever you want to call it, its the best way to do it.
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I don’t have a problem when your performance is used to judge whether or not you deserve the loot. I wasn’t aware I was playing a game that gave huge rewards for trying and failing. That’s a bunch of crap. If you fail, you shouldn’t get rewarded, especially when someone else in the group is outperforming you by a large margin! I lost a nice chest piece and a piece of T5 to a hunter with similar gear, but doing FAR less DPS than me. 2 freaking rolls. We would have been just fine had he not come at all! There is no reason to reward poor performance and failure. Go play Hello Kitty or something if that is what you want.
Hans-
WoW is a game, but it’s a game we spend a lot of time and money on. It’s only natural that some people take it seriously and are competitive. I see your point of view, but try for a second to see the other side, especially those of us with limited time that may not be able to “farm” gear all the time….
I dont think it is right to ninja something, it is the same as stealing. Regardless of a players skill, it is wrong if you have laid out the loot rules before hand and then go and decide that ur going to give it to just anyone. I also do not believe it is fair to give out loot based on performance, a really good player my die early for any number of reasons they couldnt have controlled, and how else is a player who is undergeared supposed to get good gear??
@tag
I am very limited also in my time which is why my reputation is so important to me. Be it my Name or Guild tag, when I log and guildes or friends list is huge in getting gear and options for runs etc…
When I choose to pug I set my expectations low that way I am not disappointed.
To me this game is not about loot, its about relationships. Working with other goal oreinted people for a common goal. If we are shy for raid (had 33 sign up for last nights raid) like during our holiday with no offical raids, my perfomance got me all the invites I needed. If I pug, people on my server know our guild performance. If all above is solid then loot just happens.
I’m not saying I’m not competetive there are some in my guild who don’t perform as well as others. But we do work with each other to improve. Personally there is 1 Shaman and 1 Hunter who perfom consistantly better than myself that pushes me to improve. We still have 2 and 3 drakes left to do but that is our progression focus, currently. So you understand I am not in a Hard Core guild. But we all have fun clearing content every week.
I love how people hide behind the morale highground in this subject. This is a video game, and in regard to the person who mentioned Illidan. Yeah, it is a cesspool. Like it or not, SOME people play this game for the very reasons that many of you mentioned. While thieving in RL has consequences that are real, I don’t ever justify my not doing it simply based on some randomly decided morale tenents. I view everything with cause and effect. If I steal in RL, or murder or rape or any number of things, bad things will happen to me most of the time. Thus the consequences far out weigh the benefits.
However, on the internet, IN a video game, does it really matter? Some will say yes b/c it effects your personal relationships with people in an MMO. Others will say no, even going so far as to use the internet as their outlet for that type of behaviour. I”m not saying it’s right, but like it or not, in the age of name changes and at will server transfers, nothing one does has any real consequences. It’s a super dick way to look at it, but I’m taking devil’s advocate here.
I’ve been in this situation. At a time when I was unable to raid regularly, I would hit up VoA and OS every chance I got. Hoping for some upgrades. So there I was, in a pug VoA. Only two hunters in the group. The tank died, he came straight for me and I got one shot. This was pretty early into the fight. T7.5 gloves dropped, I rolled a 98, he rolled a 5. The LM (was in the same guild as the other hunter) gave him the gloves. I was furious. The LM claimed it was an accident, yeah right. It was stated before we started that it was going to be open rolls. Anytime I see either of them in the /2, I let it be known what happened.
http://www.wowinsider.com/2009/02/11/when-would-you-become-a-ninja what did you start here?
I definitely like the topic. I think some of the scenarios are a bit off – a pre-Wrath kill on Kil’Jaeden is more than likely not going to include any pugs, possibly a healer or two but it just seems a bit far fetched (though I know that’s what you were going for there).
Real life money – I’d probably ninja something for real life money and offer some of it to the person that won but didn’t get loot… and it would have to be a pretty decent amount ($10 isn’t cutting it).
I pose another question though on top of this one. I play a paladin, I leveled and at 80 I was protection. My girlfriend, a resto shaman, and I ran a lot of heroics together with me tanking and her healing. We pug every raid because we are in a social and friendly guild (Kil’Jaeden is quite a good server and allows us this flexibility). Lately though, 25man raids have not been looking for tanks as they usually have people who regularly go with the group. Along the way I’d been picking up holy off-spec pieces when no one else needed them and I put together a nice set. I’m looking forward to dual-specs coming out and decided I’ll do holy and protection so I can tank heroic 5mans with my girlfriend and heal with her in raids which is something I really enjoy (pre-Wrath we played alliance side on a pve server and we were both healers together through Black Temple).
I’ve been respecing A LOT lately based on what the raids need, and if I go as holy then I roll on healing gear and if I go as protection then I roll on tanking gear. I’ll roll for off-spec of the opposite if no one needs it.
Yesterday I was called out on it in a 25man vault pug. I had a pair of blue holy pants on in a 25man vault with 2 holy paladins (myself and another). Valorous healing pants dropped and I rolled and won. The raid leader whispered me and asked if it was my main spec or off-spec and was questioning my decision to roll. I told him main spec (since I was holy for the raid, that’s what I considered my main spec at the time).
However, it’s really getting confusing for me and I feel bad when I say that because I don’t really have a main spec anymore. In 10 and 25mans I’m holy unless the group needs a tank and then I’ll respec for them, and in 5mans I’m protection.
Is there anything wrong with this situation? I think it’s a fair balance – I roll main spec on whatever I happen to be at the time and my role in that current raid.
Did you ever think the person didn’t turn in a good performance or died early because their gear is horrible because they keep getting passed over? If you have a legitimate use for the item – you get to roll. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it doesn’t. The leader should only take over when that Mage is rolling on the plate piece (then the Mage should be ridiculed continuously) or something along those lines.
There is literally only one item in the entire game I would be willing to /gquit, ninja, and server transfer for, and that is the Ashes of A’lar.
My reasoning behind this is that if you’re going to ninja, do it big or don’t do it at all. Don’t ninja a piece of gear; gear gets replaced by new content, gear drops all the time, etc. Throwing your reputation and morals down the drain for something that will invariably lose its effectiveness in–AT BEST–a year is a horrible, stupid decision. If you’re going to sacrifice personal integrity, do it on an item that has like a .5% drop rate. Do it on an item that nobody in the raid is even going to see again. Make it memorable and make it worth it.
Anyone from the Area 52 server knows the infamous lolroguebow incident. For those who don’t: Thori’dal dropped off of Illidan for one of the top raiding guilds on the server. Even though there was at least one hunter in the raid who needed it, one of the rogues got it. The guild, though it still raids, now has a terrible reputation (though lolroguebow was not the only part of that).
2 days and no new blogs :(
@Stridur I am writing one. Don’t worry. And this has picked up quite a few new comments so it was interesting to read the responses.
Funny timing. This morning I gkicked someone for running a pug JUST to ninja loot items out of OS. He said he was mad because it had happened to him twice before and that’s just no excuse. Some of his friends quit with him, clearly they didn’t think what he did was wrong. Good riddance I say.
I love these blogs , they are like my newspaper during lunchtime
@Protectorate
My opinion is you were in the right.
It gets reaally confusing when for example our Fury warrior changed to Prot for us to clear Naxx and guess what a dps item dropped. We use main then off spec but because he usually raids dps we let him roll. As long as you define your spec at the beginning of each raid no one should have a problem. Gratz on legs. Now if Envoy would drop for us Hunters we would be happy, has yet to drop we all have dkp saved will be interesting /roll.
@Dro
Great topic nice reading. Sorry that your server is that bad not all of them are.
@#37 Vati,
The reason the hunter didn’t totally freak out and gquit over the bow incident is because he would lose his ability to raid in SWP and down KJ again.
In the rogue’s defense, it’s a sweet ranged weapon. On behalf of all hunters, its a FREAKING BOW. I understand the idiocy.
Would you rather gquit over Thori’dal or continue to run SWP? I personally wouldn’t give up my raid spot in a top-tier guild over an item. The hunter made the same choice when the rogue rolled.
If you win the roll, you should get the loot.. end of story (unless someone is rolling on an item that is not an upgrade or does not fit their class or rolling on alt spec gear that would be an upgrade for someone else).
If not, why bother rolling at all? If not, why the heck would anyone ever want to raid with you? Why would you send me an invite knowing there is no way that I can possibly get anything of use out of it? Do you like wasting people’s time? etc, etc..
Ninja loot is just plain pathetic, it’s a freaking game.
On a side note.. I think some people might actually kill their mom for that call from Bill Gates 0_o … what strange creatures we are.
I’ve master-looted T7 shoulder tokens to people who didn’t need it, despite desperately needing the upgrade myself (wearing level 78 blues in that slot). Sorely, sorely tempted to have an “accidental loot” though, but I’m at the core a fairly honest person. Dammit.
People keep saying armory gear to make sure you don’t get scrubs.
That almost never works. Any DPS class in leveling blues/greens is able to top 1000 DPS at level 80. Whenever I form a VoA run, I make it clear that anyone under 1000 DPS will not be getting loot. They need to learn basic class mechanics before they get free epix in my raids.
I’m sorry, what I meant by the above comment about “Armorying never working” is that many many times I’ve seen fully epic players completely incapable of performing up to their gear level. Including fully epiced rogues and hunters pulling less than 700 DPS.
It’s a waste of good gear to toss it to people that have no idea how to use it, and as long as I make my loot parameters clear beforehand, I don’t feel the least bit guilty.
Same thing for naxx 10/25 by the way. I’m more willing than most to take people to nax that don’t have the achive (I.E first time there) However, in exchange for me taking a risk on them, they better understand that they will get no loot, be kicked and saved to a raid ID if their DPS isn’t as good as it should be.
@superwombat
I know what you mean. And on the flipside, I’ve seen great geared players from guilds who would enforce some kind of performance absolutely not try just because they are in a PUG and just don’t care.
What’s the point of having a Master Looter if not to do this stuff. If someone doesn’t like how loot is distributed they shouldn’t raid with them in the first place or the future.
@M Well I think most people accept Master Looter as a person to prevent random folks from rolling on gear not for their class. Not to distribute loot however they see fit and at their whim.
I think most guilds go by the standard (Members>Trials/Casuals>off spec>other>PUG) or something similar regardless of their loot system (council, DKP, etc). So for a pick up to be rolling for loot against a guild member in a progression raid (why there is a pickup in progression I don’t know) is quite ridiculous.
Any guild that would award a legendary item to a pick up over one of it’s own dedicated members is not a guild I’d want to be a part of anyway.
Anyway, it sounds to me like you and your mates are a bunch of babies. So much drama over Vault loot. How many hardcore raiders still need pieces that drop in vault for main spec anyway? if you are serious about PVP the same could be said for PVP gear. Everything that drops in vault can be obtained through other means, so simply give out the loot fairly (ie to the people who won it by your original rules) and move on.
@Hyper
“I think most guilds go by the standard (Members>Trials/Casuals>off spec>other>PUG) or something similar regardless of their loot system”
Honestly, I hope this is not the “standard”. I would hate to be a PuG in any of your raids, and see ZERO incentive for a pug raid member to even show up and help out. If they know they have a shot at loot only if all the other 24 people in the raid pass, why come at all? You need them much more than they need you, and should be able to at least benefit from taking time out of their schedule to try and get your other 24 raid members loot.
Our guild does run DKP for guild runs. But we have a simple rule. If we have to PuG a slot, dkp for that run goes out the window. Open rolls on everything. This puts the PuG on par with everyone else, while not disadvantaging any guildies at the same time because of it.
My definition of a “loot ninja”- A person that intentionally takes an item, or the contents of an item, that clearly did not belong to them. This can apply to a wide assortment of things.
There are “commonly accepted”, “implied”, and “generally assumed” rules regarding the distribution of loot. The problem is that, because these rules are not concrete, the rules are subject to individual interpretation, and adherence to them varies greatly.
I have no issue with passing any item in the game to any other player who actually can and will use it, and has reasonably earned it. There is not a single thing in this game I desire so strongly that I would compromise my morals for (now a bucketload of cash in real life is another story).
To those that use the “its just a game” argument to justify such behavior, I would reply that the item in question is just a collection of pixels, and will more than likely be replaced in a relatively short period of time. It isn’t worth it, and it doesn’t make your behavior justified or even acceptable.
That there is very little consequence for “ninja looting” does not mean that it ever should be acceptable behavior. The fact that you may be willing to do something only while anonymous, or immune to serious consequence, indicates that you know it is wrong.
If someone is invited to a raid, regardless of previous affiliation, and it is not explained that there are certain items they can’t roll on, or can’t have, and no prerequisite of performance, they immediately have as much right to that item as any other person in the raid that can and will use that item. Any undisclosed subversion falls under “ninja looting” in my mind as well, as much as just taking the item from them outright.