One topic has generated quite a stir lately. Matt posted a few days ago about how one of the guild’s best Holy Paladins decided he wanted to “take a break from raiding” because he didn’t want to get burned out before Ulduar. In most cases this is a completely acceptable situation when you are further into an expansion. But Wrath has been out for how long now? And we haven’t seen anything past the introductory raid yet.
Gevlon over at the Greedy Goblin wrote a post that generated quite a bit of attention which you can read here. He ended up changing what he thought a bit in a newer post right here (If you read any of them, read the second). I felt inclined to respond on his post. My comment, which is still there of course, said this:
If that’s how the Paladin felt as well, then maybe he would be better of joining PUGs? It’s not about you owing anyone anything. Or paying anyone back. It’s called teamwork and the willingness to help your guildies continue to run those instances so they are able to get the loot they want, just as you did.
If you (and I use the term “you” not directly, but abstractly) only care about yourself to the point where you neglect the other people in your guild, you should not be part of that environment.
It’s easy to say things about joining PUGs now, but there are far fewer successful PUGs killing 25-man Malygos than clearing 10 or 25 man Naxx. And there will be further still once Ulduar is released. And the instance after that.
What incentive does Matt’s guild have to bring this Paladin back again when Ulduar hits?
None. Like you said, there are other good players they could replace him with. Ones that won’t forget that the RNG Gods didn’t smile on their guild mates as frequently as they did for him.
That kind of attitude will kill progression. It may not happen in Naxx right now, but it will. For example, our guild had the same problem towards the end of BC. We cleared Black Temple and lots of us wanted to finish tackling Sunwell. But when a player leaves, quits, or whatever, the spot must be filled. And equally geared raiders don’t go on trees. Add in enough people where you have to continue to gear them and your guild stagnates. We had to continue clearing old content to bring their gear level up to par with the content we wanted to run.
Sure, people get burnt out from raiding. But this early into the expansion with a brand new guild filled with new faces? I call bullcrap. He got the loot he wanted and bailed so he would no longer have to help anyone else.
I won’t deny that sometimes we get burnt out. It happens. But this Paladin picked of their healing loot and was the guild’s best geared holy Paladin. To me it felt like he used the guild. So my question to you is what you think about the situation? What would you do if you were Matt? I would love to hear your opinions either here or over on the Greedy Goblin if you would like to contribute to that conversation.
So thoughts, comments, etc. Post ‘em here or there. :)
Drotara (or BehemothDan) considers himself a geek on many levels. A web developer and programmer by trade, he has no shortage of geeky hobbies. Whether it's trying to stay current in World of Warcraft raiding, playing competitively in the WoW TCG, Magic: The Gathering with friends, or a night at the local shop playing DnD, it's all good to him!
It’s a tough question. Since wotlk came out I haven’t been raiding as much, so I haven’t been getting all the phat lootz, which in turn makes me feel less obligated to be there for the raids.
But yesterday my gm sends me in the mail: Spaulders of Egotism. Can I even accept them? If I do, will that increase my obligation to raid?
Personally, I’d rather save them for my DK, but I think that would be crossing a line.
And I think your situation is a bit different as well. You didn’t look to have your raiding obligation increased while this paladin picked up tons of loot and bailed. It is definitely a place where people are going to share a lot of varying thoughts on the situation.
As a fellow hunter I’m facing a similar but opposite situation with my guild. You can find my comment at Gevlon’s post under the same name, but here’s the gist of it:
a) Attend raids as usual and accumulate EP to get priority on Ulduar gear, and watch hunter drops get d/e’ed or passed to shaman offspec
b) Take a break and give my raid spot to lesser geared hunters in the guild
Which option would you choose?
@Lupius Well how much gear are you looking at that isn’t an upgrade for a main spec? Rings, trinkets for other DPS classes, mail for enhancement shammies, etc. Inevitably there will be stuff that is not used somewhere in the raid of course. That is inevitable.
We had a similar situation, a tankadin of ours (our best IMO, gear aside, he’s just a better player), said he was leaving for a few weeks around XMas break and that he was going to start raiding with us again sometime in January.
Our guild leaders discussed it for some time, and he’s going to remain in guild, but heavily demoted during his leave as well as when he returns. We know he will, his attendance beforehand was near perfect, and we know he’s reliable, but just taking time off isn’t going to help the guild or put the guild first in anyway.
So he was demoted, if he doesn’t want to help the guild, the guild won’t be helping him was the bottom line.
@Shmii – Is it really so wrong for someone to just want to take a break from the game? Why does being a good tank for the guild mean you have to put the game first over IRL?
In the case of this holy paladin in question though, I think it was wrong of him to just bail like that after taking loot. In our guild we have what is called “tank pref” and “healer pref” – we usually give the tokens that are needed by a tank or healer to them first, because they are the ones who will be keeping the raid alive. They, in turn, are required to continue raiding with us.
Everyone knows how hard it is to find a tank or healer these days. With people like this who just loot whore and drop ship, it really isn’t worth taking them anyway if they are just going to have an attitude like that.
On the other hand though, with the point that I first stated about taking a break from the game, our guild is a fairly “casual” one, in the sense that people are not obligated to turn up every day for raids. The loot is decided by council, and often attendance is taken into account, so obviously showing up regularly is going to get your more loot. We had a break from 25s over the holiday season because too many people clicked Decline in the calendar, so our GM just said “yeah, take a break, do your own 10s and we’ll start again after New Year”, and it worked out, we’re back on regular raiding schedule as of last week.
So, I dunno, being able to say “I need to take a break because of IRL” shouldn’t be any reason for a demotion in the guild. For some people it’s forced, because as a mainly Australian guild, most of our members may have to put up with their internet connections being capped at a certain download every month, and if you exceed that cap, your ISP forces 56k speeds on you, which is practically impossible to raid in. We usually have a few people towards the end of the month (around 2 or 3) who have to bail because of this, and it is no fault of theirs. For example, our main tank got capped last month because of his sister download 5gb of stuff and couldn’t raid, and we understood and said “yeah, that’s ok”.
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It’s interesting because all these situations vary slightly. Sometimes things are out of your control. Sometimes you just need that break. The paladin in the original scenario voluntarily made efforts to obtain items through their loot council system and then knowingly quit raiding for whatever period of time after knowingly denying other people loot and what kind of effect it would have on the guild.
To me, the “I need to take a break” all depends on the scenario and the context of the break needed.
To Tora,
It was a break, and that’s why he wasn’t /gkicked, and the guild was fine with it. But he has a good chunk of i213 level gear from raiding with us. If it were a new recruit, they would have been gone.
All the tanks in our guild are pretty well geared (he too had his share of drops and the comment on him being good without the gear was more hypothetical then actual, the tank-loot gods have been nice to them). Right now though we need to get everyone else geared up and need bodies to log in and run these things. We’ve PuG’ed numerous people from friendly guilds and the occasional random person just to fill that last slot.
Putting IRL first is fine, but if your taking vaca when other people need loot to be able to progress through Ulduar, it’s kind of a “good luck and have fun” with a little slap in the face to some.
It’s a hard situation, no doubt. I’ve been in the same type of situation Matt is in before, and generally I found it easier to just not take any gear unless no one else needs it. The idea of screwing someone else out of something they could use when I know in all reality I may be taking a break, very busy, moving onto another class, etc. really just bugs me…
He really shouldn’t have been taking anything if he thought he was going to take a break, it really sucks for his guild members who depend on him.
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Interesting point all, however, one can look at a guild as a company as well, where the “employees” are earning their pay, ie loot. In that respect, when one picks up loot, under any type of loot system, one could argue that they’ve already earned that loot and don’t “owe” anything for it.
I know it sucks when well geared people leave, but it happens. Loot drops do help the guild progress, and in a way its an investment in the guild by gearing up your people. In that respect it is very similar to a company. You train your employees and invest time and effort to get them to be more productive. However, without contracts that are signed and agreed upon, their time is compensated by the pay they are earning, without regard to the future earnings in which they may or may not be there for.
@Lunchmoneyy That is one way to look at it. Alternatively, along those same lines one could say that while the employee is still getting paid they are to remain with the company until everyone gets paid. Sure we don’t have legally binding contracts, but if for some reason the employee got their entire year’s salary paid up front there is no way the company would let them leave early.
One could even keep the “company” comparison going and say, yeah you can leave the company but you can’t take the company car with you.. Of course thats not possible in WoW but if you have to go, for whatever reason, go but don’t expect to come back and have raidspots every week.
I really enjoy reading Gevlon’s Blog but he really is one of the most selfish People i can imagine.
I also completely agree with your “teamwork” thought dro. Sure epics are nice, but THE best part of the game is playing with skilled people you can call friends. My best wow experience has really been getting the Glory of the Hero achievements with more or less the same group of friends. I’m sure all of you have similar experiences and it makes me feel all the more sorry for Gevlon since he doesnt semm to be having that…
My issue with Gev, in all of his non-economy posts, is that he always takes the human factor out of the game. Now, there are clearly situations where that needs to be done, and being too ‘emotional’ in a decision can be a hinderance. I had a friend smack me upside the head when I as debating taking a spot in a fairly high ranked guild after joining a guild (that I ended up in for 2 days) just starting 25s while waiting to hear on an app. 1 raid does not loyalty make.
Guild loyalty is always thrown in your face when you choose to leave a guild. Thus, in economic terms, it does have a value. Now, by people trying to retain you, it’s overvalued. By serial guild hoppers, it’s undervalued. I also worry about the effect on your reputation that following Gev’s advice to the letter would have.
Reputation also has a value, though it is not quantifiable. Getting a rep as a loot mercenary, only concerned about yourself, may be ok enough for pugging random 5-mans and the occasional raid, but you’re not going to be seen as reliable enough to see the higher end content. You might be the best player on your server, but if the players equal to your skill don’t want you around, you aren’t getting anywhere.
Now, I do realize the counter argument to this is ‘If you are the best player on you server, any guild that doesn’t take you is full of fools.’ That might be in part true, but the 1 player does not make a raid. Raids are not necessarily stacked with the 25 best players in the guild, they are stacked with the 25 players that have the best chance of succeeding.
‘Olegreens’, a nickname I gave to the guy with 5 max level alts that were ALMOST Kara geared, was not invited to raid unless we deperately needed one of his classes. It could be argued that due to his experience, he was one of the best players in the guild, but his attitude of ‘I need epix lootzorz for my toonz’ did not make him an ideal person to have around, and so he didn’t come. He’s since cycled through many guilds, trying to find one to help him gear his 5 DPS toons.
This leads to my eventual point. Matticus uses a loot council system. I actually like these, when done fairly, as it gives the best chance of those that are great at what they do getting the loot they need to be even better. I’m still pissed that I lost a ring to a hunter who’s dps I literally doubled on Patchwerk, sadly the loot council is the ONLY way to keep that from happening.
This Paladin has now damaged his value to the raid. His inteded goal is to not raid until he can get gear, so he’s done into Ulduar. The Raid will continue raiding. A new Pally healer will be geared, and will make himself valuable to the raid. The guilds reputation will grow, and take on new members. This Pally has leveraged his short term success against long term goals. He may well find that he doesn’t have a spot when he gets back.
This doesn’t even begin to factor in the fact he’s going to be underperforming for a little while when he does start raiding again. I recently attempted to monkey with addons to ‘clean up’ my UI, and ended up looking at all the wrong areas of my screen. I was a great deal slower in acquiring targets than usual, and just felt out of sorts. Luckily, it was just a 5 man. But, Ulduar is going to be more difficult, this is known. Add that to being out of practice, and this guy is not going to be a smart play come Ulduar progression time.
If there’s one thing I don’t tolerate, it’s using a guild for your own ends. This paladin, I’m sorry to say, seems to be full of shit in this situation. I could see taking a break near the end of TBC, or even in the middle when farming SSC but failing Vashj was getting long and dull. But taking all the first drops and claiming you’re bored? Of course you’re bored…suck it up and help your friends. This is ridiculous. This is a case of “Got to 80, got my gear, got what I wanted, later bro!” and I’d kick him if it were up to me. Unless there’s some RL thing we don’t know about, maybe in which his wife is begging him to please take care of the children, he’s using the guild.
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This is such a great discussion topic because people have experience with it on so many different levels.
@Lupius
I think the best option for you isn’t actually listed there.
Speak with your guild master… ask him, “Do you want me there for XX raid? or do you want me to sit out so you can get a couple other people geared up and see how well/poorly some of these newer Hunters play?”
Depending on how much your guild raids.. say 3 nights a week, you could sit out for 1 of them and then your guild leadership can see the effectiveness of other players BEFORE you get to Ulduar and find out that some people just can’t cut it.
Dro’s right – some loot simply ceases to be a useful drop. If you have the flexibility to make a raid time… put it in the hands of your guild leadership. When it all comes back around, you’re not going to be “docked” for not being a team player.
@ Shmii
I see/hear about people getting demoted in guilds quite a bit. I think a big factor is what sort of guild organization/structure/mentality exists. Being a GM since 2005, I’ve always tried to steer clear of “punishment” type effects… this would certainly fall into that category.
This could be a matter of wording between us — what you call demotion, I may call a change in perspective. Demoting people for going on vacation seems pretty silly to me. If I have a raiding core of 30 people and a main tank goes on vacation for two weeks, then I’m simply going to try to find a way to float the guild in the meantime.
So-n-So who is on the raid roster as “DPS” is going to fill an OT roll (or the plate wearers can take turns) so we can see how well each does, and get them a couple gear upgrades.. and the other OTs are going to become the MT. When the guy comes back from vacation, it is not my obligation to guarantee his/her spot back… we’ve been making ends meet without him/her. In 9/10 cases you want them back in the tanking line-up as at least an OT though. The DPS goes back to what they enjoy.. and all is well.
Good people are just too hard to find, in my opinion.
You mentioned pugging out that last raid slot occasionally… which is great, in my opinion. Because you get to see potential recruits in an actual raid environment. Sure it can be a mild hindrance… but it can be much more of a help in the big scheme of things when you consider the relative ease of the content right now.
Approaching it as a company works for some guilds, but you really need to talk to individuals to make things work. My particular guild was built on the premise of being a community more than a company. That’s not better or worse – it’s just different. If someone wants to take a break from the game because RL is creeping up on them (school, family, work). GOOD. Take a break. We need good people around.. and you’re one of them. Take your break and get back with us when you can.
But I’d have to talk to them in vent and make sure they understand that in the meantime, the guild still has to function… and due to that need, a raid spot may not be sitting around for them when they come back. If you’re in a leadership position you need to have understanding that the guild’s situation and player availability is a constantly changing thing. When this person comes back from their absence, someone else could very well be going on one.
And once again.. recruiting good people and good players is not something easily done.
I think kahdirone hit the nail on the head with their post.
The original issue of someone getting geared up and finding themselves bored to the point where they tell your guild leadership they are not going to be raiding until content comes out that allows them some upgrades is certainly an annoyance (to put it mildly).
I handle most guild issues on vent… and this would be no different. I’ve got no issue explaining to people the importance of their role in our guild as a community and a functioning raid unit. If they choose to cease their actions within the guild because they are not getting a particular benefit from it and do not want to play, then I need to remind them of the basic principles.
1. Regardless if you believe so or not, your gear and level of skill can be partially attributed to a number of other people that are STILL raiding.
2. When you’re gone the guild doesn’t stop. You cause problems for us… but we’re just going to endure the hardship.
3. When and IF we find a way to alleviate the problem… by finding someone to fill your role… then it is no longer your role – it’s their role. And the thing you may be “saving yourself for” (an ulduar raid slot) may not be there when you come back.
Letting your guild down is never a good thing. But I wouldn’t remove a long standing guild member if they did this. My respect for them might hit an all-time low, but again, good people (and if this person has been around for a while, they probably typically are “good people”) are hard to find.
And when they come back, IF they raid, they simply aren’t going to get loot for a while… and I’d make sure they knew that — there’s a loss of some respect and trust that needs to be gained back… not with necessarily me personally, but with the other 20+ people you should be raiding with regularly.
For the amount of time most of us put into this game, it deserves personal attention.
I can’t tell someone… IF YOU TAKE A BREAK, I’M GOING TO KICK YOU! That’s silly. They’ll stick around and inject a negative attitude into your raids and guild… and while they perhaps pick up some off-set loot over some other people, they’ll be talking and applying somewhere else.
I apologize for the long post… I’d meant to respond to this last night with something considerably shorter, but I was just too tired.
I wouldn’t kick the guy.
But when he came back, I’d be inclined to not give him as much gear as Matt did so quickly.
Or give him a period of time when he was not going to get gear, to make up for time he could have helped his guild.
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Really liked your post Weezzii, mind if I use some of it for the guild I’m helping put together? Might drive home a few points to some of our members.
Cheers.
Yeah, np at all.. use/take/splice.
lets keep it 100%, if he feels like he doesnt want to raid anymore, its his decision.
if its some “i got my items …cya” shit then well~ get some new pala and put him on ignore :[
i disrespect people who only play for loot and dont join a raid anymore when they ve nothing to gain from it itemwise
keep it real yo
I hate to say it but it really depends. For the Paladin in Matts article, he’s a jackhole and I would probably kick him. At least from what was written he came off as “thanks for the gear, buh bye”.
There are times, especially during the holidays, that people need to take time off. It isn’t about whether they want to play or not, they just can’t. Penalizing people for things that are beyond their control is wrong.
@Stupid Mage I think most people will agree with you on that. Sometimes life happens and it is unavoidable. I don’t think anyone would be upset with people taking holiday breaks, or some off-time during life situations.
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As someone who just went on break, I find this issue to be interesting from my point of view. We are a casual guild, and we just started to get enough people to 80 and geared to start running 10mans. So when I decided that I needed a break, I essentially forced my guild to find get someone to fill my spot, and since I was the only hunter main, I took that away from them too. I still check on guild forums and keep up on interesting news for my class, but I know that leaving when I did was probably really annoying to my guild leaders.
So, what do you think should happen to me?
To Weezzii,
My illiteracy must be kicking in, I can’t tell if your siding with the guild decision or saying it was to severe.
He really didn’t say to much as to why he wasn’t going to be raiding to the guild, he just said I won’t be raiding for awhile and kind of stopped logging in, maybe he was on a cruise with Wi-Fi, maybe he was at some relatives house for a month. I’m not to sure and most of the guild isn’t to sure either from what I know, just that he logs in a couple times a week and logs off 5 minutes later. Everything else has been assumptions based on his personality, and what everything appears to be pointing at.
To Tealyon,
If they’re looking for a replacement, then I wouldn’t expect first dibs on raid slots when you come back assuming they get a solid replacement. That is unless they put it on farm status and can afford to bring people who haven’t been down as often, that and they aren’t going for achievements too.
@Shmii
I don’t know if I specifically had a stance on your issue, simply because I don’t know what “heavily demoted” means for you guys. If someone is going on xmas break, then I don’t think there should be much “held against” them. Prioritizing the people who WERE there during that time seems fitting (with loot, raid slots, whatever)… and he/she who was on vacation would (normally) naturally come back up to speed after a week or two.
The first question to ask is what type of guild do I belong to?
Raiding guild, Progression focused or the dreaded casual guild?
What guild or team I joined will have an effect on my commitment.
I myself feel responsible for contributing what my class does best DPS. With what ever I can bring be it heroic gear, badge gear, correct gems, finding the right buff food, elixirs or flasks does me best with my current gems and spec. This should equal results being consistent with my dps every week. This is raiding 101 stuff but I see some in my guild do not so this but we are a casual guild. Progression focused but 3 sometimes 4 days a week, of which I can’t commit to full raid schedule, I make every raid be it late 2 nights of the weeks. I understand I may be benched because the raid is full but when I am uppper dps and progression bosses come up I always get invites.
so blah blah blah about me I do owe my guildies there shot at loot when I am geared, I owe them for the free enchants on my gear, or free Alchemy (love being herber). If I stop do I slow progression? Taking a break is acceptable by every guild I have ever been in. This Paladin is not communicating, which leads me to believe he is cracking under the schedule of raiding possibly my point is I think his decision to “take a break” is not your average break. Why would you not communicate to your guildies if I was taking a cruise or family trip or emergency for that matter. The disrespect of not communicating this shows me he is not a team player. We read blogs, post on our guild websites if this Paladin can’t take 15 minutes to communicate why would I rely on him later when it was crunch time. Not worth keeping should have been weeded out before this. I say the guild is better off in the long run.
This is my opinion, opinions are like assholes everyone has one. Now you have seen mine lol.